Miranda Mair and Craig Walter of ENGIE Impact discuss Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) in our industry. They touch on everything from top-down responsibility, to Global ESG leadership, to starting the sustainability journey.
Miranda Mair and Craig Walter of ENGIE Impact discuss Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) in our industry. They dive into linking executive compensation to sustainability and the importance of top-down responsibility in implementing sustainability initiatives. They also discuss bringing social governance factors like workforce diversity and safety into ESG targets, as well as the role of carbon offsets and practical sustainability strategies.
ENGIE Impact delivers sustainability solutions and services to corporations, cities and governments across the globe. Comprised of existing and proven ENGIE Group portfolio businesses, ENGIE Impact brings together a wide range of strategic and technical capabilities, to provide a comprehensive offer to support clients in tackling their complex sustainability challenges from strategy to execution. ENGIE Impact is part of the ENGIE Group, a global leader in the zero-carbon transition.
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[00:00:00] Eric: Hello and welcome to Beyond Built. I'm Eric Cook. On today's episode, we'll be talking with Miranda Mair, Manager of Carbon Advising, and Craig Walter, director of Resource Optimization at ENGIE impact about all things energy management and sustainability. ESG efforts are a hot topic for all organizations these days, and we're excited to have this conversation. It's great to have you both here.
[00:00:21] Chris: Hi
[00:00:21] Miranda: Yeah. Happy to be here.
[00:00:23] Eric: So, alright, listeners and viewers, we like to start every episode with a segment we call in the news. And normally we do this as a conversation between me and a co-host, but today we're gonna do this between the three of us. So we'd like to start our conversation with Miranda and Craig right here, right now.
[00:00:38] Um, and so I, we've been looking at an article together. Um, about global companies linking executive pay to sustainability. And I wanted to talk a little bit about that because to me that's a very interesting way to, uh, not only enforce, but to encourage, uh, sustainability practices. Now one of the things that I do want to start with is the, the top line number, which was that 78% of global companies now integrate sustainability metrics into board level pay packages.
[00:01:08] That, to me sounds like an enormous number. What is really driving that?
[00:01:12] Chris: What we've kind of seen is obviously with the compensation, everyone's out in the market setting these lofty goals, and they need a leader, you know, figurehead to really be responsible or accountable for making this happen. So what we've seen though, as a part of the outcome from this is with that executive compensation package, it is helping to reinforce the needs to really make a successful program. So as example, driving some of the investments in it, making sure that people have the right resources and really having that top down responsibility to really implement the, the projects.
[00:01:45] Eric: So what does that materially do though for a company? Because obviously a company's operations is usually abstracted a bit from its board of directors, so how do they make those connections down at the, the C level and beyond?
[00:02:00] Miranda: I'd say, you know, the, the whole point of sustainability and the way that you get traction with sustainability is change management. And that's something that definitely needs to come from the C-Suite. Um, it's really difficult to do a grassroots sustainability program and really have the capability to implement a lot of these great ideas that you come up with.
[00:02:16] It's great to generate ideas, but unless you have somebody at the top that really is committed to help ENGIE facilitate and get those things implemented, it's going to, uh, really slow down the success that you can see. So it's great to see that there's been such an increased focus for the executive level to have this tied to their performance, um, because it really gets their skin in the game and it makes them more accountable to say, you know, we can set these lofty goals, but then who's really going to be responsible for getting them done?
[00:02:42] So I'm excited to see that that's getting support from the top.
[00:02:46] Eric: I love that. I love that. I think that, you know, when you mentioned grassroots, uh, sustainability, I think of, for example, in our office, just like every office we've got, um, recycling bins in every kitchen and we've got those available. But, you know, people use them now just as a matter of fact because, um, we were driven to that change over time, over, over a couple of decades, right?
[00:03:08] It wasn't something that people just spontaneously got together and said, Hey, we should start putting all of the cans in that bin instead of putting them in the garbage, right. That wasn't something that magically happened. It was definitely something that was, that, that was built into the, the, uh, consciousness of our different countries that we live in and not something that, uh, that happened on its own. And I suppose that, uh, sustainability in any, in any business is exactly the same.
[00:03:35] Miranda: To do it successfully, for sure.
[00:03:37] Eric: When we talk about the ESG PAR targets in pay, um, those are typically linked to specific targets like emissions, uh, workforce diversity, safety, things like that. Um, and I think that sometimes we, we fail to remember that, that some of it has to do with environment and some of it has to do with sustainability, but there are also social governance that has to happen within that too.
[00:04:03] How are, um, how are those three things sort of linked together in your mind, Craig?
[00:04:09] Chris: Yeah, I mean, it all comes back to what's, uh, what are the material items for the business, right? So the metrics will not be implemented, will not be supported if they're not material for the business, their values, and their mission. So I think that's key, right? So a lot of times what we do is we'll start the company and actually do a materiality assessment to help support the ESG. Make sure that it's pertinent to them so that they will then get the backing needed to actually thrive and make it work.
[00:04:36] Eric: And, and Miranda, what about the social, um, aspects of that. When we talk about things like workforce diversity, safety, other things that aren't about the materials themselves, how, how is that directly linked to these sort of targets that executives are, are, are tasked with?
[00:04:53] Miranda: I like to think about ESG through the lens of like risk mitigation. So if you're consistently having issues with your, you know, safety culture at your company, you're going to have issues because that does have a cost. It's, it's issues that you could lose your reputational, um, level of reputation in the market. You could lose out on good talent. If people don't wanna come to a place they don't see a potential for advancement, um, they're not aligned to your values. It, it's, definitely, I think a lot stronger of a proposition to consider it from a risk management perspective as well, and not just think of ESG as something that's just kind of out there and, and something that's ambitious and, and not necessarily really driving what your, your company is trying to achieve.
[00:05:32] I, I think it's really important to think about this as you will be losing out on some really great benefits if you don't start to adopt these policies in these types of focus areas.
[00:05:41] Eric: I like that. I like that. And I think that, and I think that there, that, that all of these angles are very important, right? Whether we're talking about the material sustainability, which as you pointed out, Craig, can be very different depending on the organization, right? Because a manufacturing organization, for example, is going to have completely different metrics than, say, a real estate empire, right?
[00:06:00] They're gonna, they're gonna think about these things differently, and they're gonna have very different concerns about how they approach them, but. I think when you think about things like workforce diversity, safety and other types of social governance, those are fairly common across all industries. Um, and I think that one of the things that I think is really important, and I saw a, a, a very entertaining cartoon on this last week, um, that I'll bring up, um, which was, uh, about, uh, the inclusion of diversity in the planning process for not just environmental factors, but all factors.
[00:06:33] There was a fire alarm going off. And there was a guy just sitting at his desk working and the reason is nobody had thought to put a, a visual cue on the fire alarm, and he was hearing impaired. Um, there was one where there's a guy who shows up to work and he shows up to work and he's in a, he's in a wheelchair and there's nothing but stairs because again, he wasn't part of the decision making process.
[00:06:52] And so I like the, I like linking, um, these two things together because while. Uh, not trying to be a social justice warrior about it or anything I'm just thinking about the, the actual practical implications of this for businesses today.
[00:07:07] Miranda: You make a better end product if you have more viewpoints as you're designing these systems, for sure.
[00:07:12] Eric: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So one other, one other metric that was in this, uh, that was in this article that I thought was really important was, um, that it talked about setting both short-term and long-term goals and how linking the incentives for the executives to those goals. What do you think about that and why?
[00:07:31] Uh, as the article states are EU firms leading in that in the US is lagging.
[00:07:37] Chris: I think EUs been just at this longer for one thing, but I think the importance of those short term versus long term, especially on the emission side, right? Most people aren't setting these 20, 30, 20, 50 objectives. And while they may have incremental steps along the way, it's important to have those near term goals so you can kind of see, are we being successful?
[00:07:56] If not, what can we do to change it? How do we get there? So I think that's the key thing and especially, you know, the top level execs, they may not be around at a company that long, right? So you do have turnover and businesses. So it's important to set short term goals so that they feel accountable and part of the solution.
[00:08:12] Miranda: I'd flip it a little bit too, uh, just being a little more cynical. If you have a CEO who's not planning to be there more than five years, it's awfully sustainable to reduce the amount of locations you're operating in. It's awfully sustainable to reduce the number of products you're trying to produce, so just shrinking your operations can sometimes be a false implication of, look, we've made some reductions and now we're moving towards our goal. But is that going to sustain the business for the long term? If you're gonna cut and run in five years, have you set up the business to succeed for everyone who's still there and intends to be there for multiple decades, um, into the future?
[00:08:45] Eric: Yeah. And one thing that I think is also linked to that, different, uh, governments come into power and out of power in different countries all of the time. Right. And these goals have to be viewed as long-term, um, in many cases because things are going to change legislatively. Things are going to change from perspectives of the, the current leader of, of a country. So for example, you've got countries in Eastern Europe where there's a lot of change and they may be changing, but the European goals overall aren't changing and I think that helps with stability as well. Um, but even in the United States, the same thing happens, right? Companies have to plan long term. Um, because while the legislation may change slightly, the general direction is always the same.
[00:09:29] So there's one thing that I wanna ask about, uh, for both of you, is what do you think about this whole thing about the alignment? Do you think the alignment between pay and ESG performance is a good thing? Do you think it's not gone far enough?
[00:09:42] Chris: Yeah, so I definitely think that's a good thing, I, I think that you need to have some type of standard. To try to push people forward. Otherwise, just voluntary actions themselves aren't gonna really drive the change that's, that's needed. So I think that's, it's important to have it. With that said, I think that you need to consider the ability of different sizes of business, like a smaller, a smaller mom and pop versus a global tech firm, right? You need to balance what can they bring to the table, what can they do to drive the change, because that's vastly different. You know, what their, what the potential is.
[00:10:14] Miranda: I'd say, I think it's important that it's gaining critical mass. It's an expectation now so that it is going to be something that once the majority of folks are doing it, the majority of companies are doing it. It's, you know, you've made the case that it needs to be prevalent throughout all of the industries.
[00:10:28] I.
[00:10:29] Eric: So based on what you've both said, Craig, sorry, I have one more follow up for you on this. 'cause I think this is interesting. Do you think that this is also something that will be cascading down into, uh, the C level and, and even further down into organizations as well? Because, uh, while it's not today, I could perhaps see that.
[00:10:47] Chris: Yeah. And we, and we have noticed like a lot of the, the people below or in the C-suite even below that are being tied to these metrics, right? So I think they're being pushed down 'cause they're realizing those are the people that really can drive the change. They're the ones that can be held accountable for that change and, uh, really are in the position to make things happen.
[00:11:06] Um. And I would just say too, just, you know, the mandates just because they, they really help try to, I think people are realizing the value that they're bringing, right? So it's not just a pledging anymore, which is how I think they started. Like people started with a good heart. We wanna drive change, we wanna make a better world.
[00:11:25] I think people are starting to realize the actual value that occurs, just like Miranda pointed to before. Right? You look at DEI as example, people wanna come work for your business or by decarbonization, you're actually reducing energy use and well, you making your, your operations more successful. So there's people, I think now at the point of starting to recognize the actual value that's created if they take these things in place.
[00:11:48] Eric: I think that's a great take. So let's move on to our interview with our guest. So we have, uh, Craig and Miranda with us today.
[00:11:55] Miranda, I'd like to start with you if that's alright. Um, can you, um, discuss, uh, give us a little bit about who you are, discuss your journey and your role with NG Impact.
[00:12:06] Miranda: Yeah. I have been at NG Impact for just about two years now. I came in as a senior carbon advisor and then moved into managing our carbon advising services team. Uh, before that I've been working in environmental engineering consulting for 10 years. I. Doing a lot of focus on air quality science and working under the Clean Air Act, doing regulatory, air permitting, dispersion modeling, all of those types of analyses.
[00:12:28] And I started to dabble into sustainability through some carbon calculations, doing some GHG inventory, which is not dissimilar to what we would consider for regulatory pollutants under the Clean Air Act. And I started to really love it. Um, and so, finding some more of those projects to do, really starting to build up my expertise in that area.
[00:12:46] I was looking around and saw that ENGIE had, uh, a great team to come join and some of the best experts in the industry to learn from and, and work alongside. So that's why, uh, it kind of drew me in and I've been really happy here ever since. Um, but yeah, it's, it's all built off of a background in atmospheric science.
[00:13:02] I've been very interested in weather ever since I was a little kid. That's what I went for school. Um, did that in college and even did a stint in broadcast weather for a very short amount of time, just right outside of college.
[00:13:12] Eric: When you look at the extreme, uh, swings in weather patterns and uh, climate patterns, um, what do you, what is it that that makes you, um, get up in the morning and wanna make, make the world better when you think about how you can actually impact the rest of the world?
[00:13:31] Miranda: Well, I, I mean, it's, it's huge to think about. Well, you know, most meteorologists we think about like historic storms and things that really stand out as we've kind of been paying attention to the weather over many years that we've been interested in it, and people can point to, like these types of storms didn't use to happen as frequently as they're happening now when we're talking about really significant rainfall, torrential downpours that are causing floods that people have just not been prepared for, because historically it's not something that they've had to deal with.
[00:13:58] You can tie that tangibly to just the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere. Greenhouse gases help to warm up an atmosphere and warm air. Just the straight physics that we learn in our atmospheric scientist degrees is warm air holds more water, so it's going to have more rain coming into those storms.
[00:14:13] It's more energy to fuel very strong hurricanes. It's more energy to fuel severe weather outbreaks, and so it's been really kind of rewarding to see. Not only all of that science and math that I took actually put to good use, because it's a lot of math. Let me tell you, Eric, it's like, well, tons and tons of calculus.
[00:14:29] Uh, but it's fun to see that it actually has a tangible outcome of, I can actually point to, you know, these are the kinds of variables that we're looking at from a climate perspective. And then what do we do to make sure that this is something that we are, you know, trying our best to mitigate, reduce the carbon in the atmosphere.
[00:14:43] Understand that it takes time because, you know, these greenhouse gases do stick around for. A significant period of time. And if we don't act now and with, with haste that, we'll, you know, we're, we're already headed off track.
[00:14:56] Eric: That's amazing, and, and I definitely wanna get back to some of this, but Craig, I do wanna ask you as well, uh, can you give us a little bit of background on yourself.
[00:15:04] Chris: Yeah, so I always loved seeing how things work and try to make 'em better. So natural, uh, career for me was to get into industrial engineering. So that's kind of my background. Uh, from there I got out to, my first jobs, were in the energy industry, uh, both for gas and electric utilities, both from managing conservation programs as well as implementing energy efficiency measures.
[00:15:25] And then also did a little bit of time worth energy procurement, open markets, um, that led me to ENGIE. So I've been here for about 25 years now. I'm a lifer, um, on the very, basically on the very front end of, of what our solution is today, uh, around our business. Um, did a breadth of different things in there, but allowed me to get in different areas such as water management, renewables and decarbonization strategies.
[00:15:51] So it's been, it's been a nice business because everything has changed so much over the period. There's always been new opportunities. There's always something new to do and I can't, you know, the people that we work with is fantastic. That's part of why I've been here so long.
[00:16:06] Eric: So, so if I pick at your background just a little bit too, um, talking about, um, utilities and, and power and things like that and other natural resources that are used by companies, what is the one thing that you think most companies don't know that they should about? Power and power generation and, and other types of renew, uh, new renewable and non-renewable sources of energy.
[00:16:29] Chris: It's always gonna be a balance until they can improve some of the technologies around battery storage. Right. So, um, obviously the country's taken great steps forward to try and reduce the coal for power production, but from a base load perspective, as you're moving forward, right, you are going to still need gas generators and stuff you to maintain that base load, you know, especially someplace here in Texas where it gets pretty hot, right?
[00:16:52] You, you wind and solar great solutions, but they aren't something that necessarily is predictable as having some steady state base loads. So with that though, you are gonna have the ongoing challenge around how do you mitigate those, those emissions, right? So that's why there definitely needs to be an increased focus on the battery storage.
[00:17:12] When you can get that level at utility scale, then you can start transitioning that a little bit.
[00:17:17] Eric: That, that's interesting, and I think, you know, especially when it comes to, um, comes to any region where there are extreme weather events, um, you know, I, I lived in Texas for many years and I, I always remember my claim to fame is the day I moved to Dallas, I, there were 30 tornadoes in Dallas County that day, that day, which actually, which actually isn't that uncommon, right?
[00:17:41] They're, they're tiny, usually tiny little tornadoes that don't do any damage. But, but I, I thought that was, that was unusual. When I think of the, the building that I worked in, we lost power, you know, quite often. And we did have to go on to generator power because we were running data centers and, you know, we couldn't exactly let those things go down.
[00:17:58] We often talked about, you know, if batteries were better because we do have battery power in the data center, but it lasts. With all, with everything plugged in about 12 minutes. So we have 12 minutes to get onto, uh, to get onto a diesel generator usually. Um, and so I, I think about how we can, we can be better today than we were yesterday, because that was maybe six years ago that I worked in, in that business. And I don't see even in, even in most businesses today that, uh, there's been a lot of progress in that sort of technology.
[00:18:33] Chris: It, it's been tough, I think at utility scale. Right? That's, that's what it comes down to. It's like obviously homes have battery back up. I mean, to your point though, they don't last that loENGIE right. So yeah, it's great temporarily to keep things going and stuff, but I. For days on end. No, that's, that's the challenge, uh, for, for, for record battery.
[00:18:49] Right. Obviously you have, you have gas generators and stuff like that, that su could sustain stuff, but that's the challenge. And I think that, you know, some of the conversations today will get around just that risk mitigation. Right. That's gonna be so more important to, to Miranda's point about just severe weather events. How do you plan for the future to try to mitigate some of that?
[00:19:08] Miranda: How do you balance resiliency and sustainability without the trade-offs of one or the other?
[00:19:14] Eric: And, and eventually it's gonna be expensive for somebody, whether that's companies or governments or usually probably a combination of the two. Utilities make the investment, they that they have to, you know, someone has to pay for that, right? So.
[00:19:30] That is always the case. Uh, that's why taxes hardly ever go down. So, so Miranda, let's talk a little bit about the increasing pressure that everyone's facing to improve sustainability and to reduce environmental footprints. Um, when we think about, um, what, governments are, uh, doing, that's one side of the coin, but there's also a social component to that, right? We are as, um, as humans becoming more aware of, uh, of how we impact the environment directly. And I want to maybe get a little bit of information about, um, you know, how that, uh, balances between legislation and personal action.
[00:20:15] Miranda: Sure. I'd say, you know, we have more information at our fingertips than we've ever had historically. You can go and look up how people are doing, how companies are doing regards to their environmental footprints when they're, you know, showing, showcasing some of these goals or. Or maybe doing some corporate reports.
[00:20:31] Um, so people can really start to make more informed choices about what they're buying, where they're putting their, kind of, their, their dollars to work to see, you know, who might be a more green solution, a more green choice. Um, it's definitely something that you start to see more pressure vocally from people who are very passionate about climate change and sustainability and saying, you know, we can't continue on being wasteful. Being unsustainable. Ultimately, you know, I think it's a great business case though, still. You know, anything that you're wasting is wasted cost as well. So being efficient doesn't have to mean that you're making all of these extra steps and it doesn't have to cost you a ton more when the very first step is something that Greg knows very well is just energy efficiency. Being efficient with what you have, because you shouldn't be focused on decarbonizing things that don't need to be decarbonized if they can be reduced.
[00:21:19] From a social perspective, there's a lot of visibility into how these things operate. Now with all the data at our fingertips and how people are really paying attention to this topic. So it's, you can't really hide behind anything anymore. And people will notice and people will make changes if they're not, uh, seeing progress.
[00:21:35] Eric: So if we, if we look at the legislative side of that too, right. You know, so not just the let's do good to do good for the company, but let's do good for the, the entire environment and for the people. Um, what do you think about. How, uh, governments, especially things like Europe and California, are rolling out, uh, penalties, uh, for companies that are not actually meeting reduction goals.
[00:22:01] Miranda: I think it's terrific. I think it really helps to hold everyone to the same standard because you, you know, when you're relying on goodwill, you don't necessarily go as far as you might, um, if your competitors aren't going the same distance. So, you know, in a competitive market and competitive industry, if you're going to shift resources towards sustainability that your competitors are putting into other elements of r and d or expansion, you know.
[00:22:23] That is a hard trade off to make if you're trying to, uh, to continue to be competitive in that landscape. So I think holding everybody to a same standard, expecting the same types of disclosures and the same type of transparency is going to really be helpful. Um, especially for those that have kind of gone out on a limb so far to bring the rest of their counterparts and the rest of their competitors with them and, and really make sure that everybody's kind of playing by the same rules, which is something that I think has been a frustrating point. Um, when you see a lot of these, like bigger companies that have more resources to devote to this going far and beyond and saying they have these big goals to decarbonize, um, it's maybe sometimes hard to catch up if the business case isn't there.
[00:23:00] So showing them that there are penalties to, to not complying with these standards, um, also helps to make that sell for part of the business case and, and minimizing the risk of, you know, not complying with these standards.
[00:23:11] Eric: I love that. I love that. I think that, uh, I think that having a level playing field is really important, um, because while there will always be businesses that do better than everyone else, um, giving people opportunity to do well on the same playing field is, is really, really great. And I think it's one of the, one of my favorite things about being an American, um.
[00:23:32] Miranda: Well, and it brings transparency too, because there's less chance of greenwashing if you're all held to the same measuring stick. If you're all expected to do the same types of activities and we're all being clear about what those different, uh, data points are, it's a lot harder to spin it into a different story perhaps. And so I think that that's also just one of the benefits too.
[00:23:50] Eric: So Craig, if we, if we connect that to how companies are actually rolling out ESG, um, guidelines internally to get that sort of efficiency, um, what sort of work do you have to do to make a customer understand where their targets need to be and how to get there?
[00:24:12] Chris: Yeah, so I think to Miranda's point, there's a lot of different compliance requirements kind of unfolding, right? So a lot of that's just reporting. But then there's key markets more at the city, county, and state level that have implemented these compliance standards as well. So they're called billing performance standards for BPS.
[00:24:31] So in those select markets, we've seen a constant evolution. So it starts with transparency. So they start by reporting out there energy and or water use, right? So they have to do that annually. Then these markets, as they're evolving, they're taking the next steps and doing requirements around audits or retrocommissioning or tuneups, right?
[00:24:49] So they're, they're basically pushing 'em. You need to understand what your opportunities are. And then from there, they're setting future goals for actually reaching reduction targets. With someone like New York City, you know, their ob, their ultimate objective is they get to net zero. So they're forcing people to take that long lens view.
[00:25:09] And along the way, they're putting these incremental steps into compliance that if you don't meet them, there will be penalties for you. And they're real, really reinforcing not only meeting these objectives and having penalties, but the reporting aspects. So if you don't report those penalties, if you falsify report, there's penalties.
[00:25:27] So they're really being starting to be strict. And so I think New York City is going to be, in general, the ultimate model, what people will push to. And we've seen other markets aren't to follow that trend. It really starts by having a client understand what those opportunities are, right? They, they can have a lofty goal, but if they don't have a clear path to how to get there, it, it doesn't no good.
[00:25:48] So it starts with the data, making sure you understand it. You know, a lot of the carbon team, what they do is around the greenhouse gas inventories and the, that's your starting point. Um, when you start rolling in the different scopes, one, two, and especially three. Really understanding what that impact is, right?
[00:26:02] Because scope three is gonna be so much more typically than your scope one or two. So having that knowledge as a starting point and what you can then do to mitigate it, that's really the the kind of the journey we help take our clients on.
[00:26:14] Eric: So do you run into problems where you might be working with a team that's working on sustainability goals or whatever, um, but that's not directly connected up to the executive level, so they have a lot of gap between what, what want, what they want to be done and how the company's going to afford to do it and actually implement it.
[00:26:35] Chris: Uh, we have seen and enterprise speak better than I, but we've definitely seen it, right? I think what we've seen is that sustainability leader in businesses is all across the board, obviously the best one is when they're, whether that person is in the C-suite or they report directly to the C-suite at minimum, so that they have that reinforcement from the executives.
[00:26:56] Miranda: I think it calls back to the article we were discussing, having somebody that's advocating for these types of initiatives or these changes to be made operationally right from the top can help to kind of pave the way. Because a lot of times if you're, you know, just a sustainability manager operating in, you know, one department or another.
[00:27:12] It's funny, when we sit down with new clients, you kind of know how things are gonna go based on where their reporting structure is. So if the sustainability manager is under the marketing arm of this company, and it's really more that they're reacting to some customers who are giving them some pressure and just trying to appease them with enough information to make them go away or give them their question, the answers to their questionnaires versus the ones that are very embedded into operations that have a lot of.
[00:27:36] Capability to make changes that will then pay dividends from your emissions reductions. Um, it definitely varies client to client, but the ones that we have the most success with and that take all of our great initi, you know, advice, pieces of advice that we give them and insights, those ones where, where you have that buy-in from the C-suite or somebody at the executive level who can champion this and really implement those changes. That is where we see a lot of the progress being made.
[00:28:02] Eric: I think that's, that's excellent and I think that. You know, that sort of, uh, driving from the executive level is exactly what companies need to do. Um, but I do have a question that's related to that, and this is gonna be a bit of a toss up 'cause I don't know who, which of you is better to answer this question, but how do carbon offset credits fit into all of this as well as a strategy?
[00:28:23] Because I hear about it a lot and then, and then I, and then I think to myself, well, hold on. Isn't that just a way to kick the can down the road and not to do any of the work myself?
[00:28:33] Miranda: It is a hot topic, Eric. It's a, it's a very hot topic actually. It's, it's something that is, is hotly debated even, you know, amongst some of the big frameworks that we're talking about with the disclosures and, and the rules of surrounding what counts as a carbon offset, how it, beneficial is a carbon offset?
[00:28:49] You know, I think it's important to know that they are tools to help kind of look at your holistic emissions to help make kind of that gap, uh, take care of those gaps where we see it's gonna take maybe some additional time to implement a solution that will eventually bring things down more significantly.
[00:29:06] As we move to electrification and then we look at potentially getting renewables in. It's a very good measure to say like, Hey, we're gonna buy some renewable energy certificates for now while we wait to get actual renewables, um, put together for our facilities and have that longer term plan in place.
[00:29:21] So I think it's one tool that you can use, but I, I do see that there's a lot of kind of heartburn of people who rely on them maybe too much, and just know that as soon as you stop buying them, as soon as you start to look at shifting your budget elsewhere, that's an immediate uptick in your emissions that you just, just because you didn't purchase them for that particular season. So when you're looking at your GHG inventory and seeing that you're making progress going downwards, you have to have in the back of your mind that that's always at a cost. And so, you know, depending on how long term your, your payback is on some of the other projects and initiatives, um, those, those cost benefit scenarios do flip.
[00:29:55] Eric: So, so let me just ask you this, 'cause this is the other thing I think about with this. Are there enough carbon offsets available for the companies that want to use them?
[00:30:04] Chris: yeah, so I guess depends how you wanna look at it. So from her point on the recs, um, you know, I, I think that's becoming a potential challenge, right? With building new plants and getting them integrated to the grid, right? So hopefully if they can streamline some of that process a little better, they'll help from the wind power, solar powered stuff. When I hear a carbon offset though, right, that that is a different vehicle as well though there, I think the question comes down to the quality, right? So it needs to be what's considered a quality carbon offset, something that we think is really making an impact. It's not gonna change over time.
[00:30:38] Eric: Right.
[00:30:39] Chris: But to that point, I think it should always be viewed as it's, it should be a, a temporary thing or something that is applied at the end when you can't do more, right? So it's temporary while you're doing other types of improvements that will be very meaningful and very impactful and sustain over time or at the very end when you've done everything that you can. And then, hey, we're willing to, to do this a little bit more to get us all the way.
[00:31:02] Eric: I, I think that's a great explanation of it and I think that most of our listeners, uh, are gonna really enjoy hearing that because I, we often don't understand these things when we hear about them, about how they're being implemented. A lot of times there's an assumption like I had at the beginning of this conversation, that people were just buying these things to ignore the problem.
[00:31:21] But I'm glad to hear that there's actually strategies behind it and that you guys are helping people with that. So. Let's discuss, um, the how to get it right. So we've talked about, you know, what people are doing, what people are doing about it, and where people might have misunderstandings in, in how to make decisions and apply them.
[00:31:38] But if we're trying to help customers get this right, where do we start?
[00:31:43] Chris: Part of it comes down to making sure that the businesses have a common vision for what they want to do, right? So you can't have success successful program unless all the key players are involved making the decisions and the ability to work together. So having that common vision, agreeing to what the goals are, what the metrics are, they you're gonna be judged by, and have them, their buy-in altogether. That's kind of how it needs to start. So then you could then roll out and work together and try to figure out how do we work together to make, make a successful program.
[00:32:14] Eric: So how would a customer even start this though? I mean, if they want, if they're starting their journey and they say, okay. We realize that we need to get much better at this, that we're, we're doing some of the things we need to do. We're not doing all of them. We know there's legislation coming in. We don't want to get fined, but we also just want to be a good corporate citizen. Where, where do people usually start?
[00:32:37] Miranda: Starting with gathering your data, figuring out where you have emission sources, figuring out if they are material to you. Um, that's one of the things that, you know, when we first have a client come in the door that maybe hasn't gotten very far on their sustainability journey, we typically start with why. Why, you know, why would one of these particular areas be a, a source where you'd wanna keep track of, you know, different data points and, and things that are coming in? Organizing all of that. And making sure that it's repeatable, you can continue to measure the same thing apples to apples is oftentimes one of the biggest struggles, but it's really, it's kind of the basics to get going because as soon as you start to kind of stand up something that collects all of that information, you can then start to pull insights out of it and be really strategic about what types of actions you're going to take to start moving towards your goals.
[00:33:22] Um, but without good data and without pulling together all of that information into one place to get a full picture, it's really difficult to kind of make piecemeal efforts. Here and there in different pockets of your company that maybe aren't even talking to each other. Um, so that is one of the things is just kind of that alignment and pulling together all of that information. And the really hard part about sustainability data is it lives in every nook and cranny of your company. I mean, when we're talking about ESG, we're talking about, like you said, like demographics and hiring we're talking about gallons of propane, we're talking about energy consumption, and we're talking about every different facility built environment, the employees commuting to work.
[00:33:57] It's everything, every different kind of piece of data that you could imagine. And I think just like a hundred different units of measure. That's, that's a surprising hurdle to get over. Honestly, Eric is just even the units of measure to capture all of these things and keep them all connected. Uh, but that is something that, you know. To get it right, you have to start pulling together everything and getting organized before you can really make any progress in any meaningful direction.
[00:34:20] Eric: That sounds like a massive spreadsheet.
[00:34:23] Miranda: It is, it's such a big spreadsheet that we actually built it into software platform like that is what we had
[00:34:28] Eric: No, I'm sure.
[00:34:29] Miranda: is the only way that it works is to have a massive amount of data being able to be calculated at once. It's, it's astonishing, really.
[00:34:37] Eric: Yeah. No, I think, I think that I love, I love the approach and I, I love, uh, hearing about everything you guys are doing, but I also really like your, uh, your takes on what, what we actually are gonna be doing about the future. And I think that that's really helpful. Um, so now I, I'm, I know I'm gonna switch because we're, we're at the end of the interview segment, so,
[00:34:57] I'm gonna do a rapid fire segment with each of you. I'll do Craig first, if that's okay, and then I'll come to you, Miranda.
[00:35:03] So the first one is, what is your favorite innovation in the world and why?
[00:35:09] Chris: Yeah, well from the business area I work in, um, just smart technologies, smart building tech technologies. The ability and the advancements that that can make over time, given the fact that, you know, buildings count for 40% of the energy use in the United States, it's amazing to see the deployment, both integration within equipment themselves or within systems, and the ability for, for those two, respond dynamically to the environments, right?
[00:35:35] As opposed to people having to mainly adjust stuff or even on a scheduled basis, not, not really keeping up with what the need is of the building so all that, you know, interval data, more data points can really drive the value within buildings.
[00:35:50] Eric: I love that. What's one innovation that you wish would just go away?
[00:35:57] Chris: Well, being here in Austin, we're starting to see a lot of robo taxis and they, and they kind of scare me seeing these cars drive around with no one in them. And it's just like, maybe it's just me. Maybe it's a trust thing a little bit, but it's like. It kind of freaks me out a bit. Um, I, I have an issue with my kids driving me, let alone seeing a car driving around with no one in it, so
[00:36:17] Eric: Yeah. But as someone who visits Austin quite often, your, your taxi co-op also scares me.
[00:36:25] Chris: Fair point.
[00:36:27] Eric: So what, what is one thing that you think that organizations should be doing that they're not doing today?
[00:36:34] Chris: Yeah, I think it's a lot of what we've been talking about today is really is having that unified vision, making sure that people understand what their role is in, in making that successful.
[00:36:44] Eric: I love that. Uh, and what's one thing that we wouldn't know about you by looking at your LinkedIn profile?
[00:36:51] Chris: well, part c engineering i, I really was going down the road of being a designer or architect. So I still, I still love that type of work. Um, you know, I've designed a lot of, with our home, a lot of spaces, both inside and outside, and it's, it's still a true passion of mine is, is working and doing that type of work.
[00:37:08] Eric: I very much identify with that as someone who over engineers everything. Alright, Miranda, let's come to you. So what is your favorite innovation and why?
[00:37:20] Miranda: I struggled with this so much, Eric. I don't even know if I have a favorite innovation. There's too many things that are constantly changing and constantly like being new that I'm always just surprised by everything that's, that's coming up.
[00:37:33] Eric: I love it. I love the, I love the pace of technology myself. It's something, and I'm, and I'm also a gadget person. I've got a, a pair of glasses now that I can put on connect to my laptop and it gives me three monitors. But while I'm on, while I'm on the plane, I mean, come on. I love, uh, but. If we go the opposite side though, do you have at least an innovation that you wish would just go away?
[00:37:56] Miranda: Oh, I've got many grievances. Many, but I, I think probably the one that I, that I definitely feel the most strongly about is, and, and certainly from a sustainability perspective, I'm very annoyed at how many times like Google is throwing AI searches into my search bar without me asking it to. There's plenty of good reasons to use ai.
[00:38:14] There's plenty of great use cases. But I just, there's a lot of stuff that you, you're Googling, you just don't need to have that level of, of analysis, that level of emissions associated with it as well for some of the stuff that we're googling day in and day out. And I, I don't know, I, I also kind of yearn for the days when Google used to work a little bit better.
[00:38:32] I, I get the sense hopefully you too know that, know that what I'm talking about back in the day as, as it used to be a little bit more useful. Um, so I think that's probably my biggest beef is that they're throwing AI into a lot of things that doesn't necessarily need to be there.
[00:38:45] Eric: Yeah, it, it, there are a lot of things that AI can help with and you know, you being someone who deals with data all the time, I'm sure you, you realize the.
[00:38:54] Miranda: great cases.
[00:38:55] Eric: there, but there are some things that you just don't need. I don't need AI to give me my search results with a little bit of extra language.
[00:39:01] It's the same thing. Yeah, yeah, I agree with you there. What's one thing that you think organizations should be doing that they're not today?
[00:39:09] Miranda: I think they should be maybe working together a little bit more. I'd love to see more input into, you know, how we do carbon accounting methodologies, how we do some of these sustainability actions, like sharing some more best practices because ultimately we're kind of all on the same team for this one to, to the extent that it's a competitive advantage, I sure can understand that, but at at some level, you know, if something's working really well and we'd love.
[00:39:31] For a lot, you know, a lot more folks to be doing it. We should be more candid about what specifically they can be doing and how, how best to implement some of these changes.
[00:39:40] Eric: Well, plus I think there are a lot of those changes that you mentioned that aren't gonna give somebody a competitive advantage.
[00:39:46] Miranda: Exactly.
[00:39:47] Eric: Right? So what is one thing that we wouldn't know about you by looking at your LinkedIn profile?
[00:39:52] Miranda: Okay, so as much as I have been all about weather since I was little in equal measure as I was a student, I also was all about music, which does not appear anywhere on my LinkedIn, but I was an avid percussionist from like, junior high to senior high into college. I was in the drum line, I was in the orchestra, I was in the concert band.
[00:40:11] I was even the drum major for my college marching band, which was tons of fun. And uh, actually when I was thinking about what to say this morning, I was thinking about why, you know, I like this kind of work so much. And I feel like I am sort of a drum major in some respects. Like as a sustainability practitioner, you have to coordinate everybody from the tubas to the piccolos.
[00:40:28] You have to keep them on the beat. You have to keep them moving in time altogether. In one shared goal, and when you can do that successfully, the outcome is just tremendous.
[00:40:38] Eric: I love that. And by the way, I also was a percussionist. Um. Yeah. In fact, uh, I played in orchestras, uh, as well. I played, uh, both drums and xylophones, uh, in different, in different orchestras. Um, but my real claim to fame and my real pure joy was when I was 14 and I was in a Cure cover band.
[00:41:01] Miranda: Wow, that is a,
[00:41:03] Eric: Know who,
[00:41:03] Miranda: is a throwback. I'm just on the fringe of being old enough to know who the cure is.
[00:41:09] Eric: All right. Well, thank both of you so much. Uh, I've really appreciated this conversation and I've enjoyed it immensely. Your expertise is going to be, uh, just eaten up by our audience, so thank you again.
[00:41:21] Miranda: Great. Same Eric. Yeah. Thanks so much. It was tons of fun.
[00:41:25] music break
[00:41:25] Eric: My takeaways today are that, you know, we have, uh, a personal and corporate responsibility to make good decisions about how we use energy and how we think about how that energy impacts our environment. But we also have to think about how it impacts our bottom line. Some of that is something that we should be doing on our own, but some of that is something governments are gonna force us to do and we've got to keep up.
[00:41:52] I think that there's a lot of, uh, a misunderstanding about how, uh, corporations are supposed to, adhere to standards. Um, and I'm glad that organizations like ENGIE Impact are out there helping customers actually, uh, do the real work that needs to be done in order to get the results they need. Uh, one other thing that I think is really interesting and there was a takeaway, 'cause we've had a, a couple of episodes about AI recently.
[00:42:22] As we adopt AI more and more, um, and depending on what kinds of AI you use and how you use it, um, that can also be, uh a real enabler for you, but it also has a carbon cost.
[00:42:34] We use AI all the time, but we don't directly think of the power cost of ai, which is very, very high. And so, um, it's something that I think is going to come into legislation in the next couple of years, but it's certainly something that companies could start getting a handle on right now. Um, overall, I'm really thrilled with our guests today. I want to thank them again so much. And of course, our sponsor Accruent. As always, learn more at accruent.com.