Chris Pyke discusses the future of ESG in corporate real estate, and how data influences decision-making in the industry. Chris and our hosts also dive into the challenges of high data coverage and the innovation needed to maintain sustainability at scale.
Chris Pyke, Chief Innovation Officer at GRESB, discusses the future of ESG in corporate real estate, and how data influences decision-making in the industry. Chris and our hosts also dive into the challenges of high data coverage and the innovation needed to maintain sustainability at scale.
GRESB is a mission-driven and industry-led organization providing standardized and validated Environmental, Social, and Governance (ESG) data to financial markets.
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00:25 - In the News
05:41 - Chris’ take
07:14 - About GRESB
08:19 - Chris’ journey
10:00 - Data that shapes insights
21:14 - Managing information flow
31:32 - Rapid fire
37:59 - Final takeaways
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More about Accruent
[00:00:00] Eric: Hello and welcome to Beyond Built. I'm Eric Cook, Tech Solutions Strategist at Accruent.
[00:00:05] Marvin: Hi, and I'm Marvin Clark. I'm the Chief Digital and Services Officer.
[00:00:09] Eric: On today's episode, we'll be talking with Chris Pyke, chief Innovation Officer at GRESBB. Chris, it's great to have you here. Hi.
[00:00:15] Great
[00:00:16] Chris: to be with you.
[00:00:17] Eric: All right, listeners and viewers, we like to start every episode with a segment we call in the news. Marvin, our in the news segment today is all about a topic that's been making headlines lately, sustainability and green goals. The article that we are looking at today, which is in the show notes, um, is about the trends and the future of ESG in corporate real estate.
[00:00:39] So Marvin, from your perspective, which of the trends in this article feels realistic and which ones maybe feel more like buzzwords or marketing pitch?
[00:00:49] Marvin: It's a really good question. I, I think there's validity to all of them. The two that stand out to me are smart buildings and what are we gonna do with data centers? So starting with smart buildings, people are expecting the business to provide all the cool things that you already have at home. And so most of our homes are pretty smart now, and so you have to at least be a parody with what people have at home in the office.
[00:01:15] But then secondly, I would say with data centers, and I know we're gonna talk to Chris about this in a few minutes, but there's more data today than there was yesterday, and there'll be more data tomorrow than today. Data centers are just going up everywhere in the world. And so what is that going to look like? What are we going to look like? How are we going to manage those facilities? Are they gonna take over everywhere? Are they gonna be in every city, every community? Who knows? So that's an interesting one for me, is what are we gonna do?
[00:01:46] Eric: I talked to a friend of mine who, you know, is worried that AI is gonna create Skynet or something like this, and I said, it may not create Skynet and those killer robots, but it may create a sky that looks that same color as the movie.
[00:01:59] Marvin: That's so true. That is so true.
[00:02:02] Eric: Yeah, so the article touches on the rise of also hybrid workspaces and flexible work environments. That's something I know that we work on at Accruent quite a bit. How do you see that trend influencing the way that we think about commercial real estate and its usage today? I,
[00:02:17] Marvin: I think it's one that we're still trying to figure out and what I would say, that I'd love to get your feedback, we still don't know what to do with these office buildings because they had a very specific reason why they were built and why people are going to work. Now we're trying to figure out how often do people go to the office? Do they actually have, half the office becomes a residential area? None of that's been figured out. So I guess I would ask you, Eric, what do you think is gonna happen? Where do you think this is going?
[00:02:46] Eric: So it, it's interesting especially when we think about it in the vein of environmental influence and, and impact. When we have huge office spaces that are unused, they're still cooled, they're still lighted, they're still servers in the server rooms. There's all sorts of things that are still happening in those environments, and that's not necessarily a good thing.
[00:03:08] Many of our viewers probably don't know, but we recently moved our headquarters office. And we moved into a slightly smaller but more purpose-built space that meets our needs better today. And I think that a lot of companies are looking to do that, not just to right size the organization based on the people that are coming into the office, but also to make sure that that environmental impact is, is lowered. And they're thinking about how that ultimately impacts their shareholders and their perception with the public.
[00:03:41] Marvin: It's a really, really good point.
[00:03:43] Eric: Overall, when we think about hybrid and hybrid work, it's here to stay. There was an interesting thing that happened last week, and I don't know if you heard about this, but Amazon said at one of their offices that they were doing a return to work initiative and that everybody had to come back into the office or they were no longer gonna be eligible for promotions. And they got 50,000 responses from people said, fine, I don't care about the promotion. I'd rather stay at home. We have to be flexible. I prefer working in an office when I can, 'cause I like the collaboration, but that's not what everybody wants out of their work. So it's gonna be a, tough to, uh, manage as we go forward.
[00:04:17] So. I guess the next question that I would ask you, and this is more about, 'cause you've talked to a lot of different C-level people at a lot of different companies, do you think that the industries that we work with are genuinely embracing sustainability? Or is it more about optics and just meeting the minimum standards? Do you think people really care about this?
[00:04:37] Marvin: I really do. The last two companies that I worked at, it was a key priority for them. It's a key priority for, for Accruent and Fortive as well. I think this matters, this is how we're going to build a world that we're all proud of and wanna live in for many years to come.
[00:04:54] I think companies take it serious and if you look at some of the new buildings across the world that are being built, they're being built in a very thoughtful way that that allows us to be as efficient with the energy, like you were saying, and the ways that we use it. So I, I don't think that this is a gimmick for most companies.
[00:05:15] I truly believe this is a way of life and this is doing what's right for, for, for the world. And, I believe that companies are, are trying to do it for the right reasons.
[00:05:25] Eric: So maybe this is a good point to bring our guest, Chris, into the conversation. Chris, I wanna ask one last question in this segment about the article specifically before we get to know you a little better, because it seemed like a great place to get some insight from you. Is there a significant gap between what's being talked about in this article and what's actually happening on the ground? Or is this something that companies are really taking seriously now?
[00:05:52] Chris: Yeah, I, I do think that there's a agree of, of seriousness. Right now we're at a time when people aren't quite clear what they should talk about or can talk about publicly, but I, we do see that tangible action going on in organizations that, that is, I, I think it's a reality, whether we're talking about it or not, in, in some ways.
[00:06:09] Eric: I think that's excellent, 'cause I think when a lot of times when these sort of think pieces come out, people worry about, is this just something that's being said? I. Or is it something that's being actioned? And I think that brings a lot of comfort to, to me at least. So I wanna move on with our interview, I do want to introduce our guest properly.
[00:06:26] Chris, welcome to the show. We really appreciate you being here. , We would like to get a little bit of information about you to share with our listeners to start with. Can you sort of discuss, your role with GRESBB and, uh, how you got to that role?
[00:06:39] Chris: Yeah, absolutely. Hey, first, Eric, thank you for the chance to be here, Marvin. It's, I'm looking forward to our conversation and so GRESB for Americans, GRESB for our European friends, is a Dutch company. We exist at the intersection between institutional investors and asset managers.
[00:06:54] We facilitate at them having a quantitative conversation that supports their investment goals and their management activities. So for me, I am personally, I'm an environmental scientist by background. I've worked in the built environment pretty much soup to nuts since 2002 or so, and my current role, I, I work for GRESB as a Chief Innovation Officer.
[00:07:13] What that means in practice is I am responsible for anything that is outside of the next 12 month product roadmap. If we're not engineering it into production, I, it's pretty much in my lap. At the same time, I supervise our, our, our communications function as well as very importantly, the GRESB Foundation.
[00:07:29] That's an affiliated nonprofit organization that governs the GRESB standards. So that's my day to day.
[00:07:35] Eric: That's excellent. That's excellent. So when you think about your impact on the world, what is it that you hope to get out of your role and out of working where you work today?
[00:07:47] Chris: Well, I think that what I value about GRESB and what I have valued about it since its establishment in 2009, is the basic theory of change. That it is possible for a constructive engagement between investors, asset managers, to yield positive change over time that is associated, that is driven fundamentally by business value and risk reduction.
[00:08:08] So what we are trying to do is be that bridge between an investor, their interest, their priorities, their understanding of risk adjusted returns. And help them communicate with asset managers about a similar set of what we consider material non-financial information. So that's what we do. Our theory of change is that that is good for the investor.
[00:08:28] It helps them understand what they're investing in. It's good for the manager to be able to access capital and communicate with their investor. And it's honestly good for the planet went because we end up with better managed, better run property companies around the world.
[00:08:42] Eric: I love that. I love that. I do wanna dive into an interview 'cause we do have some questions that we'd like to ask you. 'cause we do definitely want to get your opinion on a few things. Just so you know, the, the environmental issues and sustainability is literally one of our most requested topics. It's something that a lot of people ask about all the time, so I'm really glad that, and it's very timely that we're having this conversation. So we know that everybody's focused on ESG and sustainability. Everybody agrees that we need to get, we need the data to get this right, and we know that you guys are working toward that. And what I would like to know is what kind of insights are emerging from the data that you're collecting, and how are you shaping the decision making in the real economy today?
[00:09:25] Chris: Maybe one way to answer that question is to, I'll take, I'll just very briefly say, when we say the data, what do we mean? What does it tell us about how the market is changing and honestly how we, we, as part of a community have changed it? So, first and foremost, when we say the data, we, every year at GRESB, we have a great infographic up on our kind of, we have a public results page. We show this infographic about the sheer volume of data that has increased, and we think of that as transparency or raw material for investors. That includes qualitative indicators, people, policies, practices, risk assessment, and quantitative indicators. Energy, water waste and, and the kinds of the things that happen at an individual asset level that are aggregated up to a company. So we, we do think of data in a holistic way. We are talking about hundreds and hundreds of data points for individual companies. That critically inGRESB perspective. We are not a certification. So this is an annual assessment process where we are looking at year over year improvement. So there's two ways to answer your question about what impact does it have?
[00:10:26] One. If you go back to 2009, or even just back the last 10 years, what we have seen is a dramatic shift in how companies are managed. They have more comprehensive, more extensive leadership. They have more consecrated policies, practices that are institutionalized in their organizations. Quantitatively than we had a decade ago.
[00:10:47] So we have seen a big convergence around a common set of management best practices. In fact, that convergence is so strong that management practices alone are no longer differentiating for most companies. So we have seen the focus shift to measured operational performance and what we consider that to be is one.
[00:11:06] Do you have data? What is the coverage of data? Real world measure data across your operating platform. And then two, are you improving? Does that data show that you are improving relative to yourself year on your year? We call it like for like improvement. And increasingly we are then holding, we are evaluating those companies against absolute, internationally recognized benchmarks.
[00:11:29] We can talk more about that. So we know that whether it comes to, and that that improvement is reflected in improvements in individual companies. The longer they engage with these activities, the better they're managed and the better they perform, and the industry as a whole. We've seen that shift to better management and improved performance. We are nowhere near done yet, but we know quantitatively that that's what's happening in the real world.
[00:11:54] Marvin: So Chris, how do you create consistency across the different asset types so that you're telling a very consistent story or showing or providing the right metrics across the different assets?
[00:12:07] Chris: That's a great question, and actually it's a question that's at an inflection point right now, so it's a great question to ask. So one, historically we were all about consistency and that the way we did that was provided the, the, the benefit we provided to institutional investors was a global standard for assessment. We applied the same indicators and the same metrics to every real asset company we engage with. So last year that was more than 3000 of them. That standard is governed by the GRESB found the independent non nonprofit GRESB foundation. It does this, the courtesy of licensing back that standard for us to use.
[00:12:41] So the standard is a one size fits all activity historically. So offices, retail, residential, logistics, industrial. All playing by the same set of rules. And the benefit of that is you could really see different, you, you, you were comparing apples to apples, however. Okay, here's the, but the but is that there are limits. Consistency is a virtue. However, we understand, we live in real estate and so there is differentiation and so we, in the past, we prioritize consistency above all else. In the past couple of years, we've begun to say, Hey. We can be consistent, but we also need to meet market segments where they are.
[00:13:17] Residential is different than, logistics is different than data centers. And so we are trying to experiment with new ways to maintain consistency while getting sectoral differentiation. And that's hard and so happy to talk more about that. But so we live and breathe consistency, but we are increasingly developing for sector specificity.
[00:13:35] Marvin: Got it. That's incredibly cool.
[00:13:37] Eric: You mentioned that there was a shift going on between, collecting the data and reporting on it to actually creating performance out of that. So how are you not only measuring performance changes, but how does that therefore impact how investor relations work. How do you sort of bring those things together?
[00:13:58] Chris: That's a good question and let me unpack that a little bit 'cause it may be counterintuitive to some folks 'cause they would think, Hey, isn't data itself. It isn't data itself interpretable with respect to performance, and the answer is not necessarily. So what we, what we end up with is we are collecting data at different scales, buildings, assets, funds, companies, and in many cases we don't.
[00:14:23] We don't, there are lots of metrics we could choose from, and we don't necessarily know what good looks like. We don't have a benchmark for good. Essentially when, especially if you take the unit of a company, what is the right level of energy? Use intensity or a mini emissions intensity for a logistics company or for an open air retailer or for a wet laboratory.
[00:14:46] Um, we, we may have benchmarks. For a space or a building, but by the time you begin to aggregate, we simply don't know what, there's no right or wrong answer to that question. So our, our solution historically has been to benchmark. We identify peer groups and we say these are peer companies and we're gonna compare them to each other.
[00:15:03] That works. So benchmarking is a way that we can, we can get a good, better, best answer relative to peers, even if we don't know what good looks like. However, that's increasingly. We need to balance benchmarking against absolute standards. 'cause when it comes to a building, we actually do know a lot about what an, the le the absolute level of efficiency under some circumstances.
[00:15:25] So the bottom line of your, of your question is how, what, why is data alone not sufficient to ba basically allow us to interpret good, better, or best. We have to take that data. And define it and interpret it with respect to either to an applicable absolute or relative standard. And the creation of those absolute and relative standards is in different phases of maturity for different types of property in different places around the world. And we're all kind of navigating a journey as we go from kind of shortcut solutions like benchmarks to more stable outcomes in absolute terms. Each niche, each country is in a different place. We can talk about that.
[00:16:06] Eric: I think in a lot of cases we do the same thing in our business, right? There are certain metrics that we can definitely measure. There are certain things that we can measure, but we don't know what it means until we apply a better filter to it and say, okay, we can see this thing is improving and we can measure that it's improving, but we don't know until we hit good that we're at good.
[00:16:28] And I think that's an important thing for people to, uh, to think about. How do investor expectations surround those metrics that you're collecting and those improvements? How does somebody who's an investor or not, whether you're an institutional, I suppose, or individual investor, how do you know whether these things are actually moving the needle in the direction that you want to put your money?
[00:16:50] Chris: Sometimes the answer is very straightforward. So if we go to some things like data centers today, we have investors who set a minimum bogey for power, usage, efficiency, or and effectiveness. And they say, Hey. This is my PUE, and if you're above 1.58, I'm not interested. And if you are close to 1.25, hey, that's a sweet spot for me, I'm in. And so it is very specific and it's based on kind of a gestalt about what the industry is capable of delivering right now. Others, they use devices such as in the real estate space, we have the creme or carbon real estate risk monitor pathways. Some investors put a lot of emphasis on creme pathways and say, Hey, I'm gonna compare your energy use or emissions, use intensity to this glide path.
[00:17:34] For my universe or in the case of the 2025 res standards, we are basically, we have, we have introduced something, we, we use the ASHRAE 100 standard for operational energy efficiency, which gives a threshold to say, Hey, this level of energy efficiency for this property type in this climate zone is about, is the right expectation for a highly efficient asset.
[00:17:56] So we, the bottom line is, but depending on where you are and exactly how you're phrasing that question. There are a variety of benchmarks and standards we can use to answer that question for the investor to say, am I investing in a currently efficient property? Am I in, is my asset gonna be able to follow that decarbonization curve? Do I hit specific quantitative bogies that are my thresholds for investment? We see all that and probably more.
[00:18:22] Eric: That's amazing. That's amazing. It touches so many things, and I hate to change this to a three-way interview, but Marvin, I, I wanna follow up exactly with you on something that Chris said. A lot of people look at these metrics and other metrics determine, you know, am I gonna invest in this data center or am I gonna invest in this business? Do we use similar metrics in our business when we decide, for example, who we're gonna partner with for hosting or 'cause we host a great deal of software everywhere around the world.
[00:18:48] Marvin: The short answer is absolutely. So, so we want to make sure that we're working with partners and, and try to call it, try to stay partners on vendors because partners are doing something together and, and, and you have a shared goal. But yeah, absolutely. We are are focused on making sure that we're incredibly efficient.
[00:19:07] So when you're seeing our products that are, are, are either being managed by Microsoft Azure or if they're in one of our data centers, we're doing it using the most efficient practices, the most efficien efficient hardware. Processes because we want, we wanna keep the carbon footprint as, as small as possible. And, and that's a big goal of ours, is to make the world a better place today, tomorrow, not just today. It's something we definitely focus on.
[00:19:35] Eric: I love how it all connects together because if you think about it, we are making decisions to make sure that we stay as, as carbon neutral as possible, or at least to stay as ecologically, sound as possible. But that is gonna directly translate. The share price, for example, of our company because we are part of that journey.
[00:19:54] So I love that connection and I think a lot of people listening can probably, uh, can probably, uh, align with that.
[00:20:02] Marvin: I agree. The other day we were talking about all the different data points and, and it's amazing the amount of information and just the experience you have in this, in this particular field. But with all the different data points that you're looking at and researching and analyzing each day, what are some of the new trends, new things that you're learning that you're like, oh my gosh, that's so different than it's been in the past.
[00:20:26] I.
[00:20:26] Chris: I think yes, you're right, we do. Every year that is different. We have this flow of information and actually it's not just annual now, it's increasingly more, more frequent than that. And we're trying to understand that.
[00:20:38] We are learning how important as a scientist, I'm gonna call them independent and dependent variables. So the independent variables are the things that we know about the object, about the company, about the facility, and that we use to interpret the measurement. So it relates to what Eric was saying earlier. We need, we find that we have invested a lot in collecting information about granular energy, water waste, and emissions performance. However, to interpret that information, we need more information about the individual facilities, the asset I. What is it made out of? How does it work? Who is using it? When are they using it? Because we need to be able to segment and interpret that performance. So I think on the journey that we're on, we have invested a lot in that end dependent variable like kilowatts and you know, kilowatts per hour. But we haven't invested enough in the quality and comparability of the asset data.
[00:21:31] And there are lots of structures out there, but that's not where we've been the last 10 years. At the same time, we're also also asking a bit about return on investment from data collection. We have seen the universe, the GRESB reporting universe move upwards from way less than an average of 50% data coverage.
[00:21:49] We talk about data coverage. How much of an entity's potential, say energy consumption are they able to disclose to an investor? We are now up to almost 80%, and so the thing about that is, is that the question is. The, the cost of that last 20% of data collection is goes up. And at the same time, we know a lot from that base, 80%.
[00:22:10] So one of the questions is, are we allocating the, what are we getting from the next marginal spends on data coverage? And we need to be more explicit and we need to be more structured in how we do it. And so a two-prong attack, one, we are trying to, to. Collect the information we need to interpret the data we have. And two, asking more critical questions about the return on investment from any marginal investment in data coverage.
[00:22:36] Marvin: That, that's fascinating. Thank you.
[00:22:38] Eric: Maybe you could explain some of the software, hardware and maybe other types of tools like AI and things like that, that are being used to not only collect, but process this data so that we can make sense of it.
[00:22:52] Chris: Let's explore that for a second. 'cause it is, we are existing in an ecosystem and GRESB job has been, you know, one of the, if we go back to its beginning, what investors told us is we value transparency over performance. And that transparency comes from real world measured data. So they were unequivocal that what they wanted was tr they, they didn't know per. Just like we talked about before, they don't, they didn't actually know for sure what performance, what good performance was, but they knew they needed the foundation of data to understand performance, period. And they wanted to have a certain level of data coverage.
[00:23:24] And so in the real estate space, we can think of this vertically integrated system that is starting with a building level metering devices. Or a utility meter. And we are increasingly flowing that upwards through networks of sub-meters and then aggregating often in third party platforms to create information for entire assets.
[00:23:45] Where an asset may not just be a building, it may be a shopping mall, a set of buildings, a set of multi-family housing, a set of industrial properties, and in turn those assets are aggregated into accounts or funds. And in turn, those aggregate, those accounts and funds are aggregated again. Up into a financial vehicle, like a real estate investment trust.
[00:24:04] So we are seeing a long digital chain of custody. At the end of the day, there is a meter out there somewhere that could be a hanging on the side of a building, but that, but the chain of custody and what that meter is connected to, that building, that structure, that space is maintaining that connection between the structure, the function, the consumption, as you work your way up to the reportable entity is the game we play and we play that when whether it's energy and energy is kind of straightforward.
[00:24:34] We all know what a, what a electric meter looks like, our gas meter, it gets harder if you ask, Hey, where's your water meter? And you start out, you start running around wondering what that is. And then you get even harder when you ask what your waste consumption is. 'cause you know you have a dumpster, but you don't know where that thing goes.
[00:24:48] And then you, you start asking how do you put all that together at the same time to talk about the same building, the same asset, the same company, and then track it over time. So that's the information ecosystem at the asset level that we're talking about. Many companies that is also, that is part digital, it's part human.
[00:25:06] And then whatever the, whatever we call assurance, I think that's human too. But we, we end up with people looking over people's shoulders saying, Hey, are you getting this right as you go through this process, ultimately going toward a world, we hope that is, you know, one digital handshake to another digital handshake as we get on the road.
[00:25:21] So that's the ecosystem that we are trying to intervene in. And when we say coverage, it's how much of your, of your real estate is contributing data through that kind of ecosystem.
[00:25:32] Eric: When you interact with a client and you're trying to advise them on, on what to do and you know what tools to put in place, are you advising them on specific, for example, hardware solutions that says, here's how you have to go collect this and here's the software you need to do this, and if you need command and control, here's the vendors you need to talk to.
[00:25:52] Chris: That's a great question. Actually, we don't do that. We say data coverage is good and we benchmark companies based on their data coverage. Of all the things I just mentioned, we do have a partner, universe, 150 partners. Who are connected to our universe and offer solutions into that space. About half of them are physical product providers.
[00:26:11] It could be, for instance, a Schneider Electric that's out there selling sub-metering solutions or something like that, which is great. We don't, endorse or, or, or they are part of our ecosystem. Those folks have, have said, Hey, we can help you solve your data coverage problem along with many others. Others solve the problem of assurance. They solve the problem of conveyance aggregation, reporting, all the way down to individual solutions like leak detection or waste hauling or understanding waste streams. So there are individual solution providers. We as an organization, our goal is to say is we are focused on reporting and communication between the manager and the investor.
[00:26:46] So the man, the investor is asking the question, Hey. Hey, how does your data coverage compare to other investments of the same kind? And it varies a lot. That question matters.
[00:26:57] Lemme give you an example. In the office space, the average data coverage for an office property company in the United States is way over 90%. So the basic expectation is, you've got data on e, on electricity, fuels, water, waste in all in for your entire facility all the time. If you were to invest in Asian multifamily, um, which maybe not many people might, but if you were, if you were, say, uh, Blackstone and you were making an investment, the average data coverage for Asian multifamily is under 30%.
[00:27:28] It is a very poorly instrumented, poorly measured property type. So you can't hold, you can't. The, the expectation for US office has very little to do with the reality for Asian multifamily, and so being able to benchmark within an investment class to understand the trajectory they're on with data coverage is very useful so that you're engaging and understanding the risks in the right way.
[00:27:50] Eric: I love that. That's the best thing to be as well, you know, is, is that we, we do that in several of the verticals that we work in as well as we try to be as neutral as possible. But just tell people how we want them to bring us the data so we can help them make a better decision.
[00:28:03] Chris: If that's exactly right.
[00:28:04] Marvin: So, so Eric, on that note though, I'd like to ask you a question. Because you're talking to AC current customers every day, all day. Where does this fit in their priorities?
[00:28:15] Eric: Yeah, I would say it really depends on industry. For example, in corporate real estate and retail, it's very, very high. And a lot of that actually, it may be driven by investment or other things, but a lot of it's just driven by cost. If you've got a large retail environment that sells 50,000 things and is open 24 hours a day and they've got 300,000 square feet.
[00:28:41] The, the amount of cooling, lighting, refrigeration, all of that makes a huge impact, right? And the bigger the company you are, the more responsible you have to be to your investors in that. So we do see that connected quite a bit and obviously. The higher up the chain we go the more that particular thing becomes a concern.
[00:29:02] The people at the bottom may be more, concerned with saving money. The people at the top may be more concerned with, with actually saving the planet. So I, I think that that's one thing. But I also think that this is permeating across the board because, and this is something that I know we've talked about on this, podcast before, but as we get a lot of younger generation workers into companies is more, they typically care about this a lot more than older workers do.
[00:29:30] And it's not because they care more, it's just because. They have grown up with this as a force in their lives. And so that is starting to reflect more in companies too as gen Z become the management in companies because that's what we're seeing right now is a huge transition there.
[00:29:48] Marvin: Thank.
[00:29:48] Chris: Marvin, one quick addition. I, I know you guys work a little bit also on lease structures and how those kinds of things work. It is critical that on top of what Eric said about the differences between property types and generational preferences and the great new study out from Morgan Stanley on exactly what Eric said about the preferences by generation. Recommend that highly to folks, but I, lease structures matter. So are, is the landlord paying the utilities? Is the landlord part of that process? Is it a triple net situation where the tenant is on their own on those things. So it, when we ask who cares, the answer varies by all the things we just talked about along with how the nature of the real estate is set up and operated. That's for sure. For sure.
[00:30:24] Marvin: Chris, that's such an awesome point. Great, great point.
[00:30:28] Eric: we're gonna move on, so we're gonna start with our rapid fire section, it's always the one that entertains me the most. What is your favorite innovation and why?
[00:30:37] Chris: Oh, it's such a great, I, I, I, my, I, I, I. Even though I'm prepared for this question, I'm still stymied. I. I do have a love hate relationship with exactly the technology we're using right now. The video conference call and the video, the via video communication shared screen environment. In some ways it has made my career.
[00:30:58] I love the fact that teams zoom, you know, WebEx exists 'cause it's allowed me to work remotely from California to Amsterdam and back and forth. But it's also the bane of my existence 'cause my life comes through this vehicle. So I've founded game changing, enabling, um, but also, terrible.
[00:31:17] Eric: Well, I think, I think Marvin actually has the solution to making the technology work better, right, Marvin?
[00:31:22] Marvin: To reboot your
[00:31:23] Eric: Reboot your computer. That'll make it work better.
[00:31:28] Chris: Plug it.
[00:31:29] Marvin: that is true. That is true.
[00:31:32] Eric: That's all right. That's all right. So now that we've talked about what your favorite and sort of sort of hated innovation is, what is one innovation that you wish would actually just exit the stage and go away completely.
[00:31:42] Chris: Jeepers. I, I, I, I'll be a little bit more, I'll be a little tiny bit more serious. I, I do think that we, I. That's a great question. I, I, my, I have tough times. You can tell there's things going on in my head and I'm like, ah, which, which one do I choose from? I, I think if I could pull back an innovation, is it, I have a little bit of trepidation in my field in real estate that we have created lots of different bifurcated kind of labels and credentials to put on buildings, and we've kind of gone away from holistic.
[00:32:16] This is a great building in totality. So I'd like to pull back a little bit on the innovation that allows us to put different little thematic labels on buildings. And focus a little more on holistic integrative design and delivery of buildings. And so I, I love the spirit that goes into kind of the Boy Scout badge badoo of how buildings work. But I also, that's not why I signed up. I didn't sign up to badge each quality of a building.
[00:32:44] Marvin: Okay.
[00:32:45] Chris: I signed up to, to basically get buildings that were better for people in the environment and ultimately better investments. And that's a holistic thing. So I know that's not quite a technology, but I, I, I'll just say that, that's, there's a, that that desire to atomize our built environment into little slivers and praise them individually, eh, that innovation I'm a
[00:33:04] Eric: Are, are, are you talking about multi-use, multi-family, contained development with entertainment and retail available?
[00:33:13] Chris: I, I could be, I I, it, it's, it's so granular that you're like, let's bring it all together. Let's bring it together. I, if you to, to put people in my head, I, if you walk down the street in New York City and you look at a, a door, you know, a glass door that has six different labels on it, of six different issues, and you go. What am I supposed to do with that? Don't know what to do with it when I'm breaking it down. I just wanna know, is that a great building? Is it clean, efficient, satisfying? And I, I don't necessarily experience it in parts, so I, I, again, that may not be as quite as granular as you wanted.
[00:33:43] Eric: That's okay. That's okay.
[00:33:44] Chris: That, that's what matters in my
[00:33:45] Eric: it, it's honestly probably the most original answer we've had to that question, so I love it. Let me ask you, what is one thing, so let's, let's lean back on your experience a bit, but what is one thing that organizations aren't doing today that you wish they would?
[00:34:00] Chris: That's a great question. I, I, the thing I want from, well, okay. Two, lemme give you two things. One is, okay. Most basic, most basic thing I. When people are, we are focused on delivering high performance real estate, clean, efficient, resilient, great. But you know what they, that the MAs law of hierarchy of needs for real estate means that they, people have to like the space.
[00:34:24] They have to feel safe, comfortable, and productive in that space. So let's ask. I find that, surprisingly, the, the willingness to ask occupants if they like the space and is it working on a regular, periodic and actionable way is surprisingly limited. So if I could ask people to say, to compliment their efforts on efficiency and decarbonization with one thing, it's engage with your occupants and ask them if it's working for them.
[00:34:55] Because the real source of failure of those programs is not delivering for the occupants. And our history in the real estate industry is of underdelivering in that way. That's what the seventies told us. That's what six building was. That's, you know, we are, I know we don't think we're gonna do that, but hey, our legacy is doing that.
[00:35:12] So ask your occupants and make sure it's still working for them and create a valuable feedback loop that is still far too rare. It, it sounds so easy, but in the real world, it's rarer than we'd like it to be.
[00:35:25] Eric: I love that. I love that. So I'm gonna end with one more question, one more rapid fire question. What is one thing that we wouldn't know about you by looking at your LinkedIn profile? I.
[00:35:34] Chris: Oh my goodness. I am an adult swimmer. I like to swim, but I came to it as an adult, like master swimming and all that sort of stuff. So I'm on a journey to become a better swimmer in a way that is in keeping with not having done it when I was 14. Every day I show up at the pool and I try to become a better swimmer and not drown and keep up with the, uh, older folks around me. That's one of my little passion projects is.
[00:35:59] Eric: So on your journey there, how far away from are you from swimming The English Channel?
[00:36:04] Chris: uh, halfway, which is an awkward stance,
[00:36:09] Eric: No, that's, that's, that's amazing. Marvin, could you swim half the English channel? I could not.
[00:36:12] Marvin: I don't think so. No.
[00:36:15] Chris: Part about though, though is halfway isn't, isn't the unsatisfying endpoint, right? You're,
[00:36:19] Marvin: Oh, very unsatis.
[00:36:19] Chris: doesn't, I'm not sure it's better off than a third of the way or even a.
[00:36:23] Eric: So we'll just, we'll just make sure that there's a zodiac right behind you. It's fine.
[00:36:27] Chris: That's right. That there are risk mitigation measures we can do, but I, but again, I, I'm not sure it's all or nothing affair, I think in, in the real world.
[00:36:34] Eric: Well, Chris, this has been a absolutely fascinating conversation and we really enjoyed it and, uh, we can't thank you enough for being here today.
[00:36:41] Marvin: Yeah. Thank you for your time today.
[00:36:43] Chris: Of course. Thank you eric. Thanks, Marvin.
[00:36:45] Eric: music break
[00:36:46] so Marvin, let's recap a little bit about what we talked about today. My main takeaways were that we can do better and do better for the planet while also making money and making things more efficient for the companies we work for. That was one of my key takeaways there.
[00:37:07] Marvin: Yeah. Well, I would say I, I could listen to Chris all day because just the stuff that you know is just so fascinating. But I would say the number one thing I took away was at the very end, we don't have to break down into every single metric. Let's look at things a little more holistic. That kind of resonated with me. Let's look at it in a, more in a holistic form than just every little piece. I bet you that, Eric, that probably is something we could even consider on our day to day. Are we breaking everything down too much or are we looking at it at more in a bigger picture? I don't know.
[00:37:44] Eric: I like that because it sort of feeds into the better everyday way that we think about, you know, in our business. It is a phrase we use a lot in our business, but that doesn't, that does make sure that we're trying to get the macro outcome, not just the micro outcome. So I, I really like that.
[00:38:02] Marvin: Yeah.
[00:38:03] Eric: Thank you again to our guest today, Chris Pyke, and of course to our sponsor, Accruent. You can learn more@www.accruent.com. Thanks again. Bye.